Transcript:San Diego Comic-Con 2023: Making Candela Obscura

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"San Diego Comic-Con 2023: Making Candela Obscura"
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(eerie music)

IVAN: Let's get our panelists out here. First, we have our very own Taliesin Jaffe. (audience cheers) We have Marisha Ray. (audience cheers) Robbie Daymond. (audience cheers) Anjali Bhimani. (audience cheers) Laura Bailey (audience cheers) And you know him, you love him, Mr. Matthew Mercer. (audience cheers) Oh, see, isn't this good? The dramatic tension is exactly how you wanna do it, right? So, well, thank you, everyone, for joining us and for our panelists here today. We are showcasing this brand new show, this new system all out in the world. And we have a bunch of questions to ask all of the amazing people who are part of making this show possible today. Without further ado, I think we should just jump right into it. So let's start from the very beginning, right? Creative development.

TALIESIN: Woo-hoo.

IVAN: Woo-hoo. (laughs)

LAURA: Hi! Well, we're just in it.

IVAN: Making a new thing.

TALIESIN: We're just in it. (Ivan laughs)

MARISHA: Also, real quick, this is like a crazy turnout for a show that only has two episodes right now. (group laughs) (audience cheers) So...

LAURA: That's so cute.

MARISHA: Yeah, thank you guys for coming.

IVAN: Yeah, it's pretty great. Taliesin, a question for you.

TALIESIN: Yes.

IVAN: What was the, like, what was the core themes when you were thinking about Candela and beginning this whole process? Like what-

TALIESIN: Oh, boy.

IVAN: What was the main objective you wanted to accomplish when this whole thing just kind of blech.

TALIESIN: Well, I, oh, boy, okay. It was, was it 2019, 2018? It was in the before times.

MARISHA: It was in the before times.

TALIESIN: It was, it was-

MARISHA: I mean, I guess 2018 was the inception of it.

TALIESIN: Technically BC at this point, which I really like. Yeah. It's a big circle, right? Time is-

MARISHA: Is that what BC stands for?

TALIESIN: Now it is. (Marisha laughs) So yeah, I was, we were working on a one-shot called "Shadow of the Crystal Palace". (audience cheers) And I was really, I was kind of, we were asked to do this thing. It was to promote like a box set. And they were like-

MARISHA: Yeah.

TALIESIN: Just whatever you do just don't have, don't spoil anything in the box set.

MARISHA: Yes.

TALIESIN: So we took one object and put it in a completely different story. And looking at it, I've always had some feelings about cosmic horror beyond the obvious issue with Lovecraft, which we all know those issues. And it's one of those genres, much like fantasy, where like he's kind of the cosmic horror version of Tolkien where he just kinda laid down a bunch of things and everyone went, "Well, that genre is done now."

MARISHA: I guess that's done now.

TALIESIN: "We're cool."

MARISHA: Yeah.

TALIESIN: "We can go home. Let's just keep doing that forever." And so I kinda went into, I was a big history buff, so I loaded it full of weird history facts. And then I was a, looking for a way to use absolutely none of, like remove as much Lovecraft-

MARISHA: Yeah, entirely, yeah.

TALIESIN: Influence as humanly possible. And then the third one that kinda comes with that is I, I'll do this very quickly. I don't like Cthulhu. I don't. (Ivan laughs) I don't, and here's why.

IVAN: Wait, wait, you have issues with Eldritch Gods?

TALIESIN: I, very specifically, (Ivan laughs) I don't like Elder Gods who you can name drop.

MARISHA: Yes, yeah.

TALIESIN: Hear me out.

MARISHA: We've talked about this a lot. Yes, you're right.

TALIESIN: Yes, I did.

MARISHA: Uh-huh.

TALIESIN: I'm gonna, you've heard this a thousand fucking times, every time I drink. (group laughs) The whole-

MARISHA: Not wrong.

TALIESIN: No, it's not. I don't lie right now. (Marisha laughs) The whole notion of cosmic horror is to be in this place of beyond understanding and have to to be confronted with things that are bigger than you and are things that are unknowable. And it's hard to, on a certain level, it's hard to get that feeling of unknowability from something that has a plushy available at Spencer's. Like, it's just time to move on and like have something new. So that was kind of part of it, is can we make cosmic horror-

IVAN and MARISHA: Cosmic.

TALIESIN: Cosmic horror again.

MARISHA: Beyond that as well, (chuckles) there's so many problematic things that are horrible and terrifying with humanity, and we didn't want to undercut the kind of very real life issues and troubles that people do. So why do we wanna focus on a big cosmic flying squid-

TALIESIN: Ugh.

MARISHA: Who doesn't really have impact on any of our lives when we could also tap into exploring some of very human horrors and fears that people deal with every day?

TALIESIN: It feels, it's cosmic horror, but intimate, which I know the players will have feelings on this. But yeah, it was just kind of, I mean, finding spaces where you can really have fun, you don't feel obligated to follow a pattern of what's been done before.

MARISHA: Yeah.

TALIESIN: And everybody can have fun. Horror is supposed to be fun. It's not supposed to feel bad.

ROBBIE: Yeah, fun except for that one guy in the audience right now that has like a I love Cthulhu t-shirt on.

(group laughs)

TALIESIN: I'm not gonna say I've never owned a plushie of Cthulhu. I dig the vibe. I just, yeah.

MARISHA: I have a Dagon tank top.

TALIESIN: Yeah, it's just, you know-

MARISHA: It's great.

TALIESIN: We've settled into that relationship. The spark is gone. We're beyond the honeymoon phase.

MARISHA: Yeah.

(group laughs)

IVAN: Well, horror's always been that thing that forces us to like be uncomfortable and reflect, right? And take that moment and say, "Wow, that's really unnerving and that's unsettling. Why?" Right? And horror has always been the genre that has constantly challenged people to look at what is scary in the world and confront it and make some choices based off of that. And especially all the players who have come down here and made it, you made some choices, right? And they're all wonderful. So, I mean, getting into that a little bit more, like Anjali, you have played horror games in the past too.

ANJALI: Thanks to you.

IVAN: Oh, well. (chuckles)

ANJALI: You're the only person I love so much who's tried to kill me so many times. (audience laughs) And I appreciate that about you.

IVAN: You're welcome. I'm honored. What did this do? How did this feel different and-

ANJALI: Okay, so I actually don't really love horror as a genre of things to just watch and be entertained by.

MARISHA: Wait, really?

ANJALI: Yeah.

MARISHA: We put you in so much horror stuff.

ANJALI: No, but here's why I like it here. (audience laughs) But here's why I like it here. Here's specifically why I like it here and in previous iterations is because, and with this game system and with this world that you created, this is horror with hope, which makes sense to me, because when horrific things happen in the world and we have to innately fight against them, innately fight for our lives, innately fight for what we believe is right in the face of something that is so unreal, and so evil, and so black that our brain could break, but we fight through that because of that desire to survive and that desire to protect, that to me is exciting. That's the part that makes you feel not just like a hero but makes you feel more human. And so the fact that there can be a win scenario, even if everybody died, there could be a win scenario in this game system because there is hope for the world, there is hope for humanity as they fight against all of these horrible, horrible things, you guys do that so well with so many of the screwed up, scary things that come outta your brain. (audience laughs) Like, you do that in the main campaigns.

(audience laughs)

ANJALI: You do that in the main campaigns, like the scary monsters. I'm like, "Oh, Matt. Oh, I love you so much, and I'm so scared of your brain right now." But you're like the, you get what I mean, right, guys? You hear me.

(audience cheers)

ANJALI: Like, these are some of the sweetest people I know in the world creating in the face of such darkness and giving us all light to look at and be like, yeah, all of this is dark, but there's the light and I'm gonna focus on that. That's why I like horror with you.

IVAN: Candela, obscura, right? The candela.

MARISHA: Candela Obscura.

(audience applauds)

MARISHA: The light in the obscure.

ANJALI: Matt, I love you.

MARISHA: Well, in one of the kind of one-liners that we kept coming back to, kind of like a guiding, (chuckles) a guiding light.

TALIESIN: Oh, go ahead.

(Ivan laughs)

MARISHA: When we were making the show as well as the game, and shout out to Rowan and Spenser, who were two of like our game designers and writers on this, was put the horror in humanity and the humanity in horror. And that was very much a thing that we kind of kept repeating and coming back to when examining all of us this, so yeah.

IVAN: Well, speaking to the game system in and of itself as well too, and yes, we do, we need to give a little bit of a bigger shout to Spenser and Rowan.

TALIESIN: Oh, my god.

MATT: Yes.

IVAN: Who did-

TALIESIN: They have no idea.

(audience cheers)

IVAN: I mean, watching these two just pore over the text of this book over and over again with such passion and diligence and attention to detail, it was truly a sight to behold. I've watched a lot of game designers over the years make a lot of games, and they were really in the zone while putting this together. It was a sight to behold. But Tal, Marisha, like bringing Illuminated Worlds and what Illuminated Worlds offered as a game system into Candela, like how did that feel? Like, what was that process like to kind of work from a system, right? Like, have a system and then continue to develop the show with a system that was already in the company.

TALIESIN: I was gonna say we can both, yeah, I don't know. I like that we kinda took like the blizzard approach where we just kept trying, 'cause apparently, this is very hard, to make a good cosmic horror game that is actually hopeful, and fun, and great for everybody. So it took a few years of trial and error, and trial and error, and trial and error.

(group laughs)

TALIESIN: Yeah, we kept, I remember, you're actually the one who came up with Candela Obscura, with the name of it, if you recall. Do you not remember this?

MARISHA: No, yes, that was me (chuckles) (audience laughs) and my brilliance.

TALIESIN: We had that weird little plate, 'cause we had all the weird objects for Crystal Palace.

MARISHA: Yes.

TALIESIN: And there was that weird, I have some, I don't know where it came from.

MARISHA: The Fresnel, the Fresnel lens.

TALIESIN: Well, it was the little gold plate with the, this is me forgetting what the thing that keeps boats away from-

MARISHA: I don't know what you're talking about.

TALIESIN: Thank you, a lighthouse.

MARISHA: Yeah, yeah. (audience laughs) A Fresnel lens. That's what, yeah.

IVAN: Fresnels.

TALIESIN: ADHD, I highly recommend it. And we had that little gold thing and we're like, "This is kind of a vibe."

LAURA: This is my life every day.

TALIESIN: And then you Googled, you found the word candela and you're like, "I love this word, candela. Let's turn it into-"

MARISHA: Yeah, because candela is the unit of measurement that they used to count how bright lighthouses are or were back in the day.

TALIESIN: This is how I can prove you thought of it 'cause I don't remember that.

MARISHA: Oh, yeah. (chuckles)

TALIESIN: But yeah-

MARISHA: What was your point?

(audience laughs)

TALIESIN: Well, my point was this name came up and we have been develop, that name happened in 2019.

MARISHA: Yes.

TALIESIN: And we have iterated this game, and it was interesting. Every time we tried and build a game, it was, I had not noticed how systems really influenced the way you play quite so-

MARISHA: Yes.

IVAN: The game loops, and this is the part-

TALIESIN: Powerful.

IVAN: When you, especially when you're designing games and something that I've learned over the years is it's always good to build from a core experience. And once you have an experience that you want to replicate, like you want the players to feel, right? Like, that's the big thing. And we've seen all the games over the years, they have attempted to do a different thing. Some games try to do everything. Some games try to do one very specific thing. I want to make a map of a world in one quiet year and see what happens, right? I want to build a dialect based off of a language I've never heard before. I want to-

TALIESIN: I have five bears looking for honey, nothing else. (audience laughs) Nothing.

IVAN: So it just depends. And that's what makes game design so varied and so fun as an art medium is that once you've identified that loop, you just iterate, and you go and you play and you play and you play. And play testing is the most important thing in game development, so you just keep playing until it feels right, right?

MARISHA: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, yeah, I've been, you kind of nailed it on the head. I think we play tested. We had a version. And then, of course, Darrington Press became a thing. And then we were like, "Well, we need a new version now." And we play tested that, and we were like, "It's not working. Let's go back to the drawing board." Came back, started working on it again, and I think play tested it for like nine months-

IVAN: Yeah.

MARISHA: Before we rolled the cams.

IVAN: And it's the best thing. I have to take a moment real quick, and again, celebrate working for this company on the publishing side and say how amazing it is to be able to say when the game's good, the game's good, right? (audience applauds) And there's a chance to just make something amazing. And when it's ready it can go and it can be out in the world, you know? And so...

MATT: And I'd say probably shout out to the system designer, Stras and Layla, who also--

IVAN: Oh, yes, Stras and Layla who did the original development. So something you'll probably want to understand and we've communicated this a little bit, but it's something worth mentioning, is that Illuminated Worlds is a game system that was then developed into Candela Obscura, right? So Candela is the first iterative design of the Illuminated Worlds system. So I mean, when we're talking about standing on the shoulders of giants, I do have to shout out Stras and Layla, Layla Adelman and Stras, and they are wonderful people. And yeah, ugh, but enough about game design, let's talk about that set.

MATT: Oh boy.

IVAN: That beautiful, beautiful set. So, and for the people who weren't involved with it all the time, Anjali, Robbie, Laura, what was your impression looking at that thing for the first time as players coming into this space, what was it like to kind of take in this whole setting?

LAURA: Well, it was fun 'cause it was at the same stage that we shoot CR at, but we have a couple areas that we can shoot in. And so we didn't always get to go into the room that they were building the Candela set on. And every once in a while I would just sneak over and see things as they were being built. And the first time I saw that moving piece behind you, oh my god, it was amazing, I don't know who thinks of these things, well I know who thinks of these things, but yeah, it was phenomenal.

ROBBIE: There's a dead bird on there somewhere. (cast laughing) I remember that. My pants were too tight on that show because of the tailoring, even though the tailoring was so good. So I--

LAURA: I was in a corset, Robbie.

ROBBIE: I know, I know.

TALIESIN: Jenny Newman, everybody. Jenny Newman did our costumes.

ROBBIE: For who was tucked in tighter than those high-waisted pants. So my big booty was always bumping into this one column when we first started testing shooting and something horrifying would fall off every time. I'd be like booty bump, and then a toe was on the ground. Booty bump and there's a green, oozing potion. So my experience was very visceral of the set. (cast laughing) But once you get into the space and you're doing RP and you're playing in a brand new system and you're with your friends and who are in full costume, which is just amazing, it really brought everything to life as a player and I hope it translated to the audience 'cause it was a really, really fun part of it.

ANJALI: Yeah.

IVAN: Yeah.

(audience applauding)

ANJALI: I had to fight the reaction that I just had when he mentioned the set where I was like... I had to fight it through the whole show because obviously Charlotte is not that kind of person. But also I would see new things as we were playing. And the first time I saw that beautiful piece moving, I was like, "I just want to spin it! I just want to spin it so bad." But we couldn't do that, would've broken it.

LAURA: And then there was that one point where we were shooting where the thing, it was squeaking behind you and you were being all my mysterious and all we could hear was (squeaking).

MARISHA: It needs some oil sometimes. It's just a giant wooden clockwork device, that is how it works. If you look behind it, it's this big wooden wheel that turns.

MATT: I like to think it added to the atmosphere.

MARISHA: It did.

ANJALI: Absolutely.

LAURA: "What is it that sound?"

TALIESIN: I know. Thank you Robbie for not leaning too far back, 'cause that's where we're keeping some of my uranium glass, and it's a little expensive and mostly harmless unless you crack it, but...

MARISHA: You guys, speaking of things that has been around longer than the game system and the show was Taliesin and this damn uranium glass that he brought into our studio in like 2020. And he's like, "Look, it could give you cancer." And we're like, "That's cool, you should take it home." And he's like, "It glows under black light." And we were like, "Okay, now what do we do with it?" And he's like, "It's going to sit here for three years until the show airs." (laughing)

TALIESIN: I had it at my desk, it felt good. (cast laughing) Travis. eventually was like, "Please make it go away."

IVAN: The amount of diddly bobs and tiddly winks that he's showed me over the years like that, yeah. It's glorious.

TALIESIN: Weird, horrifying.

IVAN: Well, Matt, besides squeaky Astrolabs behind you, what was it like playing in a whole new world, The Fairelands, which kind of had this established lore around it and being able to play in that space versus Exandria?

MATT: No, I mean, well here's the thing, Exandria was something I kind of made up as we went along over many years with my friends. It's very rare that I've had the opportunity over the years to play in a setting that somebody else got to design. And to clarify too, I didn't create The Fairelands, I had some input on elements of it, but that was largely Rowan and Spenser were the ones that kind of really spearheaded along with the people of the team what The Fairelands was. And so it was really cool to be kind of on the ground floor of this setting being created, getting to see which facets of it I was excited to explore, and also prepare future GMs and future groups to go ahead and just keep running. So it was very, very exciting and I love what was built for it. But then I realized in kicking off the series, I also had to be the person to introduce all of you to it, to introduce the entire setting to everybody at once. Oh boy, a lot of pressure on that one. But it was a worthy endeavor and hopefully it was fun. You all seem to be here, so it seemed to go okay.

(audience cheering)

TALIESIN: Yeah, I liked it.

IVAN: And I know a common theme that has come up a lot and you do see it in your game is this concept of class struggle, right? It's a very big thing inside of The Fairelands. How did you feel about approaching big themes like inequality in a setting that is also supposed to focus on, again, horror and making people uncomfortable and reflecting on that as we kind of talked about.

MATT: Inequality is horror. Real easy to lean into that.

IVAN: I know, I think I kind of set you up for that one.

MATT: I know, I know. No, especially in the time period that it's drawing inspiration from as well, that was definitely an era that was heavily plagued with classism and inequality through many different means of life. And that often breeds to a lot of terrible things in the shadow. Both people in power and people that exploit those who are powerless. And that's a big theme in horror, for me, a very scary theme of what's unknown is who knows what's lurking in the shadows to exploit you, who knows who's lurking in the bright light that's going to exploit you. And those two facets and everything in between lead to a lot of really interesting opportunities to find things that are scary or take things that are scary in a very real world way and twist it and make it even more terrifying and make it something that is visceral, relatable, and ultimately defeatable, which, let's be real, sometimes you need to feel like you can step up to these demons and take them down. And that's extremely important and part of the reason why we love to play these games.

IVAN: Yeah, that's the hope that Anjali talked about of being able to go and face the darkness and come out. And lock it away. Well, for all of our players putting together characters again. So it's a similar question with Matt who had to go and explore The Fairelands versus all the other games that you've had a chance to play with before, making a character in Candela Obscura, making a character for The Fairelands, did it come just like that? Was it just like a flash of inspiration, go straight into it or did you sit and chew on it for a while?

LAURA: I think everybody came at it a little differently, right? And we got to sit at the table together and kind of create our characters as a group which was really cool. Everybody kind of came in with a general idea. Some were more formed than others, mine was not. And get to hear what other people said. And then we got to build our relationships from that before we ever even played the game which was really fun, going, "Oh, okay, you were my teacher. Okay, that works really well, yeah."

ANJALI: But also, I think I'm remembering this correctly that all of us had a solo conversation with Matt. Yeah, during our session zero, we all had a solo conversation about what dark secret do you have and what was your impetus for going into Candela Obscura, and getting to have that, at the same time as getting to plan with everybody, there just felt like there was a unity in the pre-game that I haven't felt playing anything else. There was, even in us having our secrets in the room, there was just, I don't know how to explain it better than that, that there was just, it felt more unified than it does when I'm just on the phone and talking to my DM and being like, "Hey, are we going to do this?" There's something different about it.

LAURA: Yeah, and it's fun because when we were all in the room together then we got to go, "Where do we fill in the gaps? So that there's a wide range of character types," so it's not everybody playing a heavy hitter or something.

ROBBIE: Yeah, it was organic, I think is the word I would say, after we played a sort of a play test where we're messing around with classes and where we wanted to move the group as a whole. I don't think there was ever a core idea like, "We want to be this kind of party." Everybody sort of picked their classes and thought, "Well what would be fun to play from a character standpoint, and then where do we all match and meet in between?" And then it was really cool, 'cause we all just kind of went and ran with it. And then when everything came back together there was a a nice cohesiveness that leads to drama between characters, bonds that form that are not necessarily expected. So yeah, that part of it was super fun, and I think we all did it in our own different ways and it came together nicely.

LAURA: Yeah, I think everybody had little secret conversations too like you and Ashley.

ANJALI: Yep.

LAURA: I had no idea that you guys were going to be as tight as you were coming in, so it was really cool to get to witness that.

ANJALI: And even having certain things in, I got to keep certain things about Auggie in my own mind in... Yes?

TALIESIN: Carry on.

ROBBIE: I'm not here.

ANJALI: Did I say something wrong? I'm so nervous, what just happened? Just having other things that we kept from each other and then discovered about each other was again, really, really special.

ROBBIE: Howard's got two dads, did you guys know that? Are they brothers, are they lovers?

(audience cheering)

ROBBIE: Whoa!

MARISHA: Ashley Johnson?

ROBBIE: Where did you come from? (audience cheering)

MARISHA: Sup, Auggie.

ASHLEY: This was my bad, I forgot to answer an email to confirm that I would be on this. (cast laughing) So that was my bad. Hold on, I'm going to go get a chair.

(audience laughing)

MARISHA: This is amazing. Yeah, let's scoot.

LAURA: I was so confused, you guys, when we came out Ashley was standing right behind me to come out on stage and then she didn't come out all the way. I was like, "What's happening right now?"

ASHLEY: Is this okay?

LAURA: Her name is Ashley Johnson.

IVAN: Ashley Johnson, everybody. (audience cheering) I'm sorry, do we need to get her her little plaque as well too? We should probably bring up an Ashley Johnson.

MARISHA: Also while we're at it and while we're talking about characters, I've seen Laura and Ashley play a bajilliondy characters over the years and I think Auggie is one of my favorite characters you've done.

LAURA: Yes.

ASHLEY: Hey, thanks. It was good fun.

MARISHA: Laura, what was your character's name again, shit?

LAURA: Arlo.

MARISHA: Yeah, she was real good too.

LAURA: Thanks. (laughing)

MARISHA: No, genuinely really great, yeah.

LAURA: Thank you.

Ivan: Well, thank you, Ashley, for joining us today.

LAURA: I think your arrow's pointing...

ASHLEY: Yeah, that's great. Thank you, Matt. (Ivan laughing) It was my bad, guys, it was my bad.

IVAN: Well, Ashley, thank you for joining us.

ASHLEY: Oh, well thanks, Ivan.

IVAN: Yeah, how was keeping this story fresh, what was your process with Auggie? What glorious seed of inception came into this being?

ASHLEY: Oh boy, well I feel like in our test games, there were some other ideas that were kind of floated around that I still kind of am curious about exploring. But Auggie was kind of, I just, I wanted to play a newsie. (cast laughing) There's not much more to it than that.

ANJALI: I mean, what more do you need?

ASHLEY: Yes, seize the day. Open the gates. But I think a lot of it also, I think the other idea that I had, I was kind of toying with a stoic, well I don't know, if I ever get to play it maybe.

LAURA: No, but it was, you should talk about it, it was a really cool character, the other one.

ASHLEY: Yeah, it was great. I think the problem is I felt like the character was making me go inward and I wasn't talking as much, which sometimes I feel like when you create a character that's kind of... I kind of had a little bit of that with Yasha where it was like... How do I have personality in a few episodes with this? So I was like, "Well, Auggie would have some personality real quick, and add some sort of hopefully some humor to it." But it was a blast, it was a blast.

IVAN: So leaning into, 'cause one of the things that I thought was really... In the Illuminated Worlds system, there's a whole bunch of different ways to approach damage. Like marks is kind of something, and the iterative design that came out of Candela Obscura was marks against Brain, Body and Bleed. Which is all something I was so delighted that we could get a chance to look at inside of the game. So starting with Ashley, 'cause you're not stopping right here too, how did that feel being played out as that kind of mechanic, like watching these things be very targeted in a story way towards your brain, your body, and then the magickal bleed that is around?

ASHLEY: Oh yeah, does anyone want to go first? 'Cause I feel like I've been talking a lot.

ANJALI: You got to make up for lost time, you go.

ASHLEY: Well I really like this system. And I'm sure if any of you guys watch CR, you know I have problems with rules and remembering them. (laughing) But I love this system 'cause it also sort of makes the space for more role play in a way because it's not as crunchy, I guess, as some other games. But I also like that everything is, when you do get hurt or you do get a scar, it feels a little bit more real I guess, of the consequences of what would happen.

LAURA: I love that we get to choose our scars.

ASHLEY: Yeah.

LAURA: That it's not just like giving out. You can say like, this is how it affects me.

ASHLEY: Yeah.

LAURA: It's really cool.

ANHALI: I think it was, as Matt said it, just like my mother used to say, choose your own punishment.

(cast laughing)

MARISHA: Oh my God.

MATT: Ooh, that's the worst.

MARISHA: You always choose it worse than what your parents would've done.

MATT: Oh, yeah.

MARISHA: Yeah.

ANJALI: Absolutely.

MARISHA: But no, I mean, also too, it was very focused with us, with this setting, you know. In, like, other game systems, you can take several hits and it's almost like this godly ability to soak damage. But we really wanted to push that these are just people, ordinary people, in extraordinary circumstances. So if you'll get a shot point blank with a shotgun, that's it. (audience laughing) And so I really enjoyed that aspect of the system.

IVAN: That's so good.

MARISHA: High stakes.

IVAN: Yeah.

ANJALI: I do especially like though, like, yes, we're used to handling, what we does bodily damage look like, but the brain and the bleed were so intriguing because we knew that our character would have to carry that through the rest of the story, possibly through the rest of the campaign, depending on how severe it was. And how would that form our future choices and how would that inform our future choices? And playing knowing that that is a possibility, you do make different decisions in battle. Like you might be, there might be impulsive moments where you are super heroic. And then there might be moments where your impulse is to be super heroic, but you know you gotta hold it back. And I don't feel that way in other game systems because there is a sense of invincibility or like, yeah, someone will heal me or someone will bring me back from the dead. No big deal. Not in this one. This one you have to tell the story of how your life changed.

MATT: Yeah.

MARISHA: Which, I think, led to one of my favorite moments in maybe any and all campaigns that Robbie Daymond just had in the last episode.

ANJALI: Oh yes.

ROBBIE: What happened? I didn't watch. No, I'm just kidding. Well, what we're talking about is like, why I enjoyed the game so much. I'm a big horror nerd and have, it didn't just feel like consequences, and it did, it also felt like a sacrifice that you had to be willing to make. And the fact that you only got a one in six shot of not having to deal with that made every choice feel valuable. So I really wanted to leave without a scar. That was one of my secret player missions. I really wanted to see if I could out game the game and I couldn't. So as I continued to take injuries in a certain way and this is part of why, you know, Matt's so masterful at what he does. When you're a player, he walks you down this path and it feels like, you know those memes where the girlfriend's taking the boyfriend down to the beach except he's taking you to your doom and you wanna go.

MARISHA: But it's still a Vaseline covered--

ROBBIE: The painted fingernails are so beautiful, you just can't say no. So I was like, oh man, he's gonna give me a brain, which makes sense. So I think it was around that beginning of that second thing where I was like, "Well, I have to figure out something interesting to do with this." And yeah, it wasn't pre-planned. It just popped in during the session.

ANJALI: Oh, it was interesting.

ROBBIE: Yeah, yeah, so I was like, "Okay, what do I have at my disposal?" And one of my favorite things about Candela is before each mission you can kind of get yourself kitted, you know? And one of the things I had was like, surgical tools. And I was like, "Well, what if instead?" And the premise is that you also move stats around, for those of you who aren't working with that. So it's a really neat thing when you get knocked out on combat. Yes, it puts you closer to death or retirement but also you move your stats around. So what makes sense for someone who's closed off, cloistered, who's fontanelle closed 51 years ago, why not just cut a hole in your dome and see what you can't let in? And I'm glad that people enjoyed that moment but it was only made possible by the other players at the table in the scenarios that we were put into. So I feel like this system, in general, gives you the opportunity to do cool stuff. And if you have an opportunity to do that, I think you should take it. And whether that be on a stream for tens of thousands of viewers or in your own home games, I want the whole table to go, "What the? Yeah, why not?" It's part of the game. So anyway, I'm glad you enjoyed it. It was fun.

LAURA: It worked, it worked. I definitely said, "What the?"

ANJALI: We definitely said, "What the?"

ASHLEY: It worked.

LAURA: How many people here have seen the first two episodes?

(audience cheering)

LAURA: Okay, okay, okay, I'm just making sure we, I mean 'cause there are a lot of people here that, like, spoilers.

ANJALI: Yeah, lets not do that.

MARISHA: Hopefully you go watch it.

ROBBIE: I'm trying to keep it vague as...

MARISHA: And a quick plug, you can download the Quickstart Guide for free on our website.

IVAN: Maybe at darringtonpress.com.

MARISHA: Thank you. It's free. Go download it.

LAURA: It's so fun, you guys.

MARISHA: It's very fun. It's a d6 system. It's super easy. It's great.

MATT: And the third and final episode of this particular arc is next week--

MARISHA: Thursday.

MATT: Next week on Thursday.

(cast shouting and audience cheering)

MARISHA: And then something I wanted to plug as well. All of the session zero stuff that they are talking about we actually filmed. And then so we do have plans to release some, like, bonus content. We just don't wanna like spoil anything until after it's all out. But something that's really great about this system and to what they were talking about is that it really forces you to build relationships and to build your characters together. So we kind of wanted to show how you craft, you know, a suspense and a horror together, like something like that.

IVAN: Well, something that was excellently brought up in the last panel that you guys were in. And Matt, a question was posed to you of like, "Ooh, what rule would you never get rid of?" And the rule is whatever, you know, gets in the way of fun. Right, and I've always been a big advocate of mechanics should inform story. Like it should push story forward always. And it's so great to see, aw.

(cast and audience cheering and clapping)

ASHLEY: I'm a person now.

MARISHA: Oh my goodness.

ASHLEY: I'm a real girl.

IVAN: There's a beautiful amount of pride that I feel in seeing all of you basically show a new way to really like, bring story to the forefront. Now granted, I'm sorry, this isn't new. Like we've seen a lot of story forward systems over the years, but being able to see something that has been developed and then brought out and then shown the world in this way is just truly something that is special. You know, and the iterative game design that has been done over the years and all the giants who we've stood on of like "Apocalypse World" and "Blade in the Dark", and all these other amazing systems that do wonderful, wonderful work. And then, to see how we take it and how we go with it and how we find an amazing experience and carry the story. it's really chef's kiss, gang. Like, it's truly something special to watch you do amazing work with something completely new. Right? Yeah. So the last... no, not the last question but another question we want to get into here is just talking about the game system and developing a little bit more. What was play testing? Like, you talked a little bit about the session zero, Marisha, about that we filmed into it. Like, was there cool fun stories that kinda came out, stuff, and we're probably gonna release that content later but is there anything you wanna share early around some of that session zero stuff that was fun for you?

MARISHA: I don't know, that's for them.

ROBBIE: Are we? What about session Negative? What about session negative zero?

(Matt laughing)

ANJALI: I'll tell you what I learned in session negative zero.

MARISHA: Yeah.

ANJALI: So I decided for the, maybe like first time while I was playing, the first time that I had played with these cats, I decided for the first time, oh, I'm gonna try out like a funny character. I'm gonna try out like a goofy person. I think I named it Boogie, Boogie Smalls?

MATT: Boogie Smalls.

ANJALI: Boogie Smalls.

MARISHA: Boogie Smalls.

ANJALI: I named it Boogie Smalls.

MARISHA: That's right.

ANJALI: So I don't know if y'all get this sense but that's not the right character to play this game with. (cast and audience laughing) So I learned quickly that Anjali needed to revert to Anjali's stuff for a little while. But that's what's so cool about getting to have that session where you realize, okay, yes, there are guardrails. Like you can have a character who is delightful and hilarious and heartwarming and wonderful like Auggie but you can't do Boogie Smalls.

LAURA: No, you can, that's the thing. You can do Boogie Smalls.

ANJALI: If Boogie Smalls is Auggie. You guys, you gotta do Boogie Smalls as well as Ashley Johnson does Auggie, is what I'm saying. Like, so there's just a, it just felt like a different... it felt like that lived in a slightly different world than this one wanted. And so learning, that was my learning experience and that's why you have those things.

LAURA: I think it just depends on what table you're playing at though, right? Like, you can have a whole table of Boogie Smalls and that'll be a lot of fun.

ANJALI: That's entirely true. A Boogie Smalls and Boogie Smalls. You can play a full game of just Boogie Smalls clones? (cast laughing) Someone video that and send it to me, [email protected], thank you very much.

TALIESIN: Very, very early iterations of this game. there was kind of an unofficial, can it survive Sam Riegel?

MARISHA: I knew you were gonna say that. I knew you were gonna say--

TALIESIN: And that was a tough wall.

MARISHA: That was ugh. He came in, he is not here, so whatever. He came in as like a major, like an ex major league baseball player.

TALIESIN: Yeah, that was-

MARISHA: Of the era.

ANJALI: Oh wow.

MARISHA: Yeah, I think you might have been in that one.

ROBBIE: I was in that one.

MARISHA: Yeah, and we were like, "Bro."

TALIESIN: Oh, I appreciated it, I appreciated it.

ROBBIE: But it was--

TALIESIN: I'm like, bring it.

MARISHA: It wasn't bad.

TALIESIN: Bring it.

MARISHA: It wasn't bad.

TALIESIN: And yeah, it worked but it was like, "Oh man, that wasn't easy."

MARISHA: Yeah.

TALIESIN: I'm so tired.

ROBBIE: Seeing the iterations of it since the beginning because--

TALIESIN: Oh, yeah.

ROBBIE: Like you were pretty early in development. You played like session negative zero or whatever and where it came to, like, I think it came to the right place. But I've, and I mean this in the most positive way.

TALIESIN: No.

ROBBIE: 'Cause you were GMing it, I believe.

TALIESIN: I was running it from the early run.

ROBBIE: It was the most hopeless I've ever felt at the--

ANJALI: I second that, I had the same experience.

ROBBIE: I felt--

ANJALI: I left.

ROBBIE: I felt so--

TALIESIN: It was so broken, yeah.

ANJALI: I'm with you, yeah.

ROBBIE: It was so scary. It was so scary, I didn't wanna play.

TALIESIN: No.

ROBBIE: (laughing) So I didn't hear from you guys for like 10 months, and I was like, "Good." (laughing)

TALIESIN: Okay.

ROBBIE: Like, it was tough, frightening.

TALIESIN: You sit and you listen to like, watch some of these cosmic horror games, you're like, "Why hasn't somebody done something different" and kind of like, you know changed things up and made it... oh, this is why, oh, wow.

LAURA: Well that's the beauty of play toasting, right, is like, you can work out all the little kinks.

ANJALI: I forgot about those early, early ones, and now I'm remembering it.

ROBBIE: But it--

TALIESIN: Yeah.

ROBBIE: But it made you feel.

ANJALI: Oh yeah.

ROBBIE: And that is the point.

TALIESIN: It did.

ROBBIE: It was--

TALIESIN: It made you feel bad.

ROBBIE: Yeah. (laughing)

TALIESIN: Make you feel real bad. In my heart of hearts, I was always just sort of hoping that we would hit that like scary episode of Dr. Who, but it's like, oops, all companions, (cast laughing) where you're just like, there's nothing to help, but we can, yeah, everyone loves each other. Yeah, thank you.

MATT: Yeah, it's the tough balance with horror because to really exemplify good horror in a role playing game experience, fragility in the player's experience is necessary because otherwise you don't feel the tension and the sense of self-preservation that really kind of underlines what fear is that basic human need to survive when something is threatening to prevent you from surviving. But having to find also enough of a glimmer of hope or a way through the challenge that you are still problem solving a way to survive. If you take that away or take too much of that away, then it can feel swallowing, it can feel like you're drowning. And that, unless it's what you're looking for in a game experience, doesn't have a lot of broad appeal to us as players, and probably to you as players largely. And if you do want that experience that game exists out there for you and have fun.

ROBBIE: Coming out next from Darrington, "Drowning Simulator."

MARISHA: (laughing)

TALIESIN: But it was genuinely amazing watching, like, a system come out that was, like, actually getting out of the way and then a world getting developed that was also getting out of the way. And just getting so many tools that are available. But again, I--

MARISHA: Yeah, and I mean, 'cause there were so many conversations and I mean, I could wax poetically about all the philosophical conversations we had for hours about this, but so much was like can you even do horror in a let's play series? And there was like discussions about, like, do we need to do it single cam so we can edit it to be jumpy? And I was pretty staunch on wanting it to still be in an overlay because I was like, I wanna see everyone's face when they realize they're absolutely screwed.

(audience laughing)

MARISHA: And yeah, under 18. So there are all these other little things and I am a firm believer that things that are in our heads are often far worse than what they are in reality. Which is another reason, kind of jumping back to the set. We talked about having the set fall off to black behind everybody. And that was something else that I was like, we can make it look gorgeous and cool and it can look like whatever it wants, but I want it to fall off to black because there's something just unnerving and sits in the back of your brain when you just don't know what's in the darkness. That's the scariest part of, like, being in a forest at night, is you could know with 100% certainty that you're safe and there's no monsters, but are there, because you can't see. So all those little things, we were trying to play with the psyche.

TALIESIN: It's such a beautiful piece of force perspective too. Yeah. Like the depth, like, it isn't nearly as deep as it looks--

MARISHA: Correct.

TALIESIN: But boy, it feels... And people don't really realize when we play, this is for all the games, how secluded we are.

MARISHA: Mm-hmm, yeah, we block out the curtains.

TALIESIN: Giant theater curtains. You are alone. There is like, you are not really interacting with anybody who isn't at the table.

MARISHA: Yeah.

TALIESIN: And it's very lonely.

MARISHA: It's very lonely.

IVAN: Horror has definitely in the past, you know, it is easy to go into this trope of like, it's a one shot, right? Like, and all the players are there and then maybe they all die by the end. And maybe they all find their grizzly demise in their own way but--

LAURA: Tune in next week. (laughing)

IVAN: But one of the things that this game system and then Candela specifically, it is a short arc driven campaign, but like, I would, especially Marisha if you wanna keep going with this, and Tal too, it's like having you make sure that this is still, it's not a long form game. That's what we're used to seeing from us all the time. And even though there are some shows like ExU that are playing some of these shorter arcs, like what were some of these other elements that you had to carry into producing the show that let that short arc driven core element come into place?

MARISHA: Uh yeah. A lot of other long conversations. To your point, we already have now three campaigns that are hundreds of hours long. And you know, maybe we see one of the biggest criticisms of some of our content is like, "Man, that's a lot." (audience laughs)

TALIESIN: We know.

MARISHA: Yeah, we know.

TALIESIN: We know. Thank you for reminding us, we know.

MARISHA: But also when it comes to role-playing games, you still wanna allow the players to have agency. And the fun of this genre is watching these characters grow and change over a course of time. So that was when we kind of settled on this sweet spot of like three episode mini arcs, 'cause that was just enough time to where it's not an overwhelming amount of content. Also with Candela Obscura focusing on the circles, the investigative groups, you can kind of jump around and explore different facets of the world really easily without having to keep track of a bunch of lore or even be up to speed in the canonical timeline. X-files was a big point for us of inspiration, 'cause kinda have that monster over the week feel. But you still get to watch Mulder and Scully grow over time. So, yes, I'm rambling. That's my point.

TALIESIN: No, it's really interesting and this was a thing that kinda blew my mind is I believe, this was definitely one of your ideas was to do these three episode arcs. How rare, I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but how rare in horror, the notion of having a cast come back for a part two and a part three. That's not how horror traditionally works. Traditionally, you clear the field of maybe everyone but one person who maybe you bring back for the next one. It's the source of fear that gets used over and over again.

MARISHA: Right, right, right.

TALIESIN: And this is quite the opposite and I really...

MARISHA: Yeah, it's not common.

TALIESIN: Yeah, it's not common. But it's very good for this kind of storytelling.

IVAN: I think that's a very good segue into our next question which is, "What are your hopes and what are your futures for Candela Obscura?"

MATT: Ooh.

IVAN: What are some things you wanna see for both the show and the game in the future?

MARISHA: Ooh. Wait, are you setting me up for the thing?

IVAN: Um.

MARISHA: No, not yet. This is a genuine question?

IVAN: No, this is setting you up for the thing.

MARISHA: This is setting me up for the thing?

IVAN: Yeah.

MARISHA: Okay.

(all laugh)

IVAN: Hey, hey, Marisha, Marisha.

MARISHA: Is this a pitch?

ANJALI: Seamless!

IVAN: Oh.

MARISHA: Huh? I missed it.

(cast laugh)

MATT: Well-oiled machine.

TALIESIN: That's fine.

MATT: How are we so bad at this still? (cast laugh) All these years.

IVAN: Guys, I'm sorry.

MARISHA: Really, it's a miracle we've been around for eight years of the show.

(audience cheers)

IVAN: Now, for real.

TALIESIN: Robbie, this one's not on you. This was entirely, you had nothing to do with this one.

IVAN: It's my fault. I'm the X factor here, don't worry guys. It's okay.

MARISHA: Yes, with Candela of course there's one, there's so much more of the Fairelands to explore. We're just in Newfaire. You guys dabbled... Oh actually, I don't know. Maybe it's touched just a scooch. Actually, I'm not gonna say anything because that might be episode three, which you should watch on Thursday on Critical Role.

IVAN: Yoo!

(audience cheers)

MATT: And it's all happy endings and rainbows.

MARISHA: Yeah, it's great.

ANJALI: I legitimately don't remember most of what happened because I think I blocked it out because it was that...

MATT: It gets real intense, y'all.

MARISHA: It's great.

ROBBIE: It's a conclusion. And it feels like-

ANJALI: And it feels like a conclusion.

LAURA: We ate cake, it's no big deal.

MARISHA: It's juicy. I love it. There's obviously, yeah, so much more of the world to explore. I am incredibly excited for when the full campaign guide comes out later this year.

TALIESIN: Oh boy.

MARISHA: to see what you all do with it. It truly is, there's just enough of a setting in a world there for you to use it as a jumping off point or don't and do your own thing.

IVAN: Do your own thing.

MARISHA: Whatever you wanna do. It's a very easy system to adapt into whatever world or setting that you wanna build. If you wanna pull from history, if you wanna go to space, do whatever you want.

IVAN: I bet it's a cool book.

TALIESIN: Boy, it's a cool book.

MARISHA: Of course we have more chapters of Candela Obscura planned with a whole new circle of investigators and we have a little sneaksy peaksy.

(audience cheers)

IVAN: AV are you ready for this segue into this trailer? Are you ready for it?

MARISHA: Are you ready it?

IVAN: Are you all ready for it?

MARISHA: Can we?

IVAN: You wanna see this?

(audience cheers)

IVAN: All right.

SPENSER: Are you saving the world or are you hurting it?

BRENNAN: We were told they were dangerous, otherwordly horrors. Their faces looked perfectly human.

MARISHA: We don't have to be defined by our past. It's the actions in the hardest times, what we choose to do, that's what defines us.

TRAVIS: You know, the thing about people that leave us, they can always see what we do. Remember that.

ZEHRA: Time isn't running out for you, not while I'm on watch.

LUIS: Don't close your eyes this time. I want you to see everything.

ZEHRA: I won't.

[Ominous Music] [Audience Cheering]

IVAN: Yeah. That's right, everyone. You can look forward -

LAURA: Why do I wanna cry?

IVAN: -to seeing the second chapter of Candela Obscura August 31st. It's coming way sooner than you think and please, make sure you're checking out the final episode, which is coming out next week as well too. It's going to be amazing. Everyone say their last thing, then I'll ask before we wrap up our whole extravaganza.

MATT: To point out real fast too. And we've heard the name Spenser Starke a bunch tonight as one of the main people who've been designing this game. He's the GM who's running this next arc.

(audience cheers)

IVAN: Thank you.

MARISHA: He's so good.

MATT: The talented man with the Final Fantasy hair. You're gonna see me starting-

MARISHA: He's so good, you have to check it out.

TALIESIN: So good.

MATT: It's real good.

IVAN: He was the, no man knows the Fairelands.

TALIESIN: Like no man.

MARISHA: Yeah.

IVAN: Like you're gonna see this GM put it together. It's incredible. But the last thing I'll ask everyone, because we obviously are bringing an amazing new world, an amazing new system into place. What's a little piece of advice? What's a little gem of wisdom you would give for anyone who is gonna go out there and buy the book? You know, when it comes out later this year for running their own games? Like what's something that you could impart into our audience today?

MARISHA: I would say I think horror can be very therapeutic. It's one of my favorite genres for that reason. It can tell great lessons. Give yourself some therapy.

(audience laughs)

MATT: Playing off of that, horror is also a very challenging genre if you do not have everyone's consent at the table with the type of stories you're handling. (audience cheers) We have a very extensive breakdown in the coming book about consent and making sure that everyone's on the same page at the table as far as comfort goes. As long as everyone knows what you're kind of in for and what everyone's comfortable with, it can indeed be an extremely therapeutic experience. But just ensure that it is comfortable for everyone there.

IVAN: Talk to your players about themes, goals, and things you want to accomplish in your story. It pays dividends.

MARISHA: Lines and veils. Lines and veils.

(audience cheers)

MARISHA: Anybody else?

IVAN: Anyone else, yeah?

TALIESIN: Everybody has a weird thing they're afraid of that doesn't make sense to anybody else. Explain it to them.

(all laugh)

TALIESIN: Form a bond.

LAURA: I would say don't be afraid to take chances as a player, because you do feel very mortal in this system. But when you mess up or when you take bleed or whatever, it is so much fun. So just go for it.

ANJALI: Yeah, I'm just gonna piggyback on that and say lean into the failures. Because much like real life, there is so much that can come out of those moments where you think you failed. At the very least, great story, but so much innovation and so much stuff that you didn't even realize you could figure out given an obstacle that you created that you never meant to create. So lean into those.

ROBBIE: Have a secret that's just between you and the GM. Spice it up. Let it be something that can motivate you but also shock the table and have something that it's just a wink between the two of you. It's very fun.

MARISHA: Yeah, great tips. That's a good one.

ASHLEY: Yeah, play as characters like Boogie Smalls.

(audience cheers)

MATT: I'll also throw out there, for GMs and players alike. In systems like this, especially if you're used to things like Dungeons and Dragons and other systems out there, combat or encounters are not about who does the most damage to victory. It's a problem solving experience. Think about it outside of the box of how to solve this problem. Be creative and don't feel restricted by the rules. Instead, find ways around them through your creativity as a person and as a group. And find a way to defeat that terrible monster ahead of you, not through how hard you hit it. Though, sometimes if you build a character that way, that can be one way to do so. Instead, find other weird ways to do it.

LAURA: I love that about this system, that you felt fragile and you couldn't just rush in and fight. You had to think like, "What's my environment?" "How can I use that to my advantage?" It was so much fun.

ANJALI: And how can I take care of each other at the same time, but taking care of myself.

MATT: Yeah. To that same point too, as a GM, if the players come up with a really creative way that you never anticipated to solve your scenario, let them. Reward them for their creativity.

ROBBIE: Yep, yep.

MATT: That's the best.

ASHLEY: I also think that Anjali and I had a really fun time sort of building a relationship and I think that's another sort of important thing, especially if you're a little bit shy. Sometimes it's really nice to build your backstory with somebody else. And there's something that, if you have somebody else there that's part of your story, you can have a little bit more courage. I quite enjoyed that.

MATT: Yeah.

IVAN: Cool, well thank you everyone for coming out. Thank you.

ANJALI: Oh, wait, wait, wait. Thank you, everybody. Wait, wait. I have something very important to do. Okay, I'm so sorry. I'm being very selfish right now. My brother's birthday is today and he's the only reason that I ever started playing RPGs. He gave me my basic D&D set when I was eight years old.

IVAN: Woo.

ANJALI: And I fell down the rabbit hole. Would you guys mind singing happy birthday to him?

MARISHA: Yeah.

(audience cheers)

ANJALI: I'm gonna make a video, 'cause I can't guarantee that he's gonna pick up FaceTime. 'cause he is, who knows, he might be busy.

ROBBIE: What's his name?

ANJALI: Yeah, his name is Anish.

MARISHA: Anish.

CAST: Anish.

ANJALI: Anish, yeah, well... Wow. (all laughs) I feel like he needs to hear that.

MATT: Look, we've been training them for years to pronounce things, so they're picking it up quick.

ANJALI: Yeah, that was exciting. I'm so used to our names being not pronounced right. Okay, here we go.

MARISHA: We're an interesting-

ANJALI: Hi, so we're here at Comic Con and I have some people who wanna say hi to you.

CAST and AUDIENCE: ♪ Happy birthday to you ♪

IVAN: Woo.

CAST and AUDIENCE: ♪ Happy birthday to you ♪

IVAN: Woo.

CAST and AUDIENCE: ♪ Happy birthday dear Anish ♪ ♪ Happy birthday to you ♪

IVAN: Woo. (audience cheers)

ANJALI: Hi.

TALIESIN: Who doesn't wanna be serenaded by-

(audience cheers)

TALIESIN: I mean, really. I mean, that's all. That's all.

ANJALI: (hands slam) Boom!

IVAN: All right. Well you've heard it. You've heard it, I'll say it one more time. Make sure to tune in for the finale of chapter one next week, July 27th.

(audience cheers)

IVAN: Get real hyped for chapter two, which is gonna be on August 31st. And thank you everyone for coming to the panel today.

MATT: Thank you so much everybody.

MARISHA: Thank you all.

LAURA: Bye.

MARISHA: Thank you so much.

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"San Diego Comic-Con 2023: Making Candela Obscura"
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