Talk:Dwueth'var

Renaming the article
To respond to OccidentalAvian, I think the difference, at least to me, is that "Bright Queen" is a title rather than her name, making it more appropriate for her article to be at "Leylas Kryn" rather than "Bright Queen" because we wouldn't put characters at articles that are named after their title in the way we wouldn't put "Essek Theylss" at "Shadowhand". Where, "Star Razor" is used as the sword's actual and more commonly used name. It's actually treated as if it's the Common translation of the name, but that's a presumption. But, it seems to me, it's more useful in this case, since they're both treated as the sword's actual name, to go with the name people are more likely to be looking for. I think it's more akin to the Squall-Eater / Ball-Eater and Eden's Horizon / Nein Heroez naming convention. FreckledMcCree (talk) 18:45, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

I guess that's where we disagree, I always felt that "Star Razor" was being used as a title. Yes I know that it's the translation of the name from elvish, but I feel like that would then make the elvish name the "more correct" name for it. It's "Dueth'var" (name) vs. the Star Razor (title). Also, you said yourself that Star Razor being a translation is a presumption. OccidentalAvian (talk) 18:55, 25 August 2021 (UTC)


 * I meant title as in a position, like marquis or king or lady. The sovereign of the Kryn Dynasty is the Bright Queen, who is Leylas Kryn. And the definite article doesn't always make a title, given "the Belabor". Generally, I feel that articles for most things should be at the most expected name for them, which is that which they are most commonly called—unless they are characters, who are located at their proper names. And, even then, characters are at the forms of the name they are more commonly called: the article is at "Percival de Rolo" rather than the more correct "Percival Fredrickstein von Musel Klossowski de Rolo III", at "Fjord" rather than the more technically correct "Fjord Stone", it was just decided that it should be "Vex'ahlia" rather than the more currently correct "Vex'ahlia de Rolo". The main thrust of the motivation is that it's Dwueth'var 7 times versus Star Razor 63 in transcripts, overwhelmingly in favor of readers being familiar with it as Star Razor over Dwueth'var. FreckledMcCree (talk) 19:05, 25 August 2021 (UTC)


 * I guess I don't have a rebuttal, at least not a convincing one. I still disagree though. On a similar subject, Death from Above should certainly be renamed to "Broom of Flying" under this argument. I don't think Vex ever called the broom by that name. I don't know why it's called that on the wiki in the first place to be honest. OccidentalAvian (talk) 19:12, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I would personally support that. Given it's "Death from Above" to refer to the broom literally once (and IS it its actual name or is it like inscribing a wedding ring with "Forever Yours"), fully "flying broom" or "broom of flying" like 10, and simply "the broom" or "my broom" in reference to it being a broom of flying so many to countless times. I don't think I've ever seen anyone refer to it as Death From Above outside that article title, and I'm not sure if anyone successfully finds it that way. It might be worth waiting a few days to see if this topic coalesces, but I'd support that move under the same principle: that of least astonishment to readers when they're trying to find something. FreckledMcCree (talk) 19:18, 25 August 2021 (UTC)


 * I agree with Occidental, for what it's worth. I vote to keep Dwueth'var the page name, and Star Razor a redirect.LynnE216 (talk) 22:00, 25 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Other discussions centered around what is most useful, helpful, and intuitive to readers, and I agree. From there, an article's title is most intuitive and helpful when it is one readers most expect or most commonly identify a subject by. In search of a name most common, proper, and identifiable, it's useful to look at:
 * Dwueth'var is used 7 times in two episodes, last in 2x72. Star Razor is used 63 times in thirty-one episodes between episode 2x70 and 2x141. Fjord, its wielder, exclusively calls it Star Razor.
 * In 2x72, "Star Razor is the name of the sword?" gets an affirmative with no correction from Matt. Later: "[Marisha:] Wait, is that it, nothing of the Star Razor or Dwueth'var?" "[Matt:] If you want to spend a while tonight, [...] you do eventually come onto the Star Razor." This indicates Star Razor is a name equally proper as Dwueth'var.
 * 's logline reads: "in hopes of finding someone who can reforge the Star Razor..."
 * The video Critical Recap uses Star Razor, i.e., 2x72, 2x73, 2x76, again 2x76. My search turned up only one instance so far of Dwueth'var (alongside Star Razor), when the name is first revealed in 2x70.
 * The written Critical Recap uses Star Razor, i.e., 102, 113, 119, 125, etc. It uses Dwueth'var only twice in the recaps for episodes 50 to 72 and episode 73 to 99.
 * Brian uses Star Razor at least once in Talks Machina rather than Dwueth'var.
 * Majority of fans use Star Razor, evidenced by CritRoleStats, their L10 Fjord sheet, What We Know About..., Livetweets for 113, etc., and Google showing about 7,100 results for Dwueth'var, half using solely Dwueth'var, and about 16,800,000 for Star Razor Critical Role.
 * Based on this, Star Razor is a proper name, and most do not call it Dwueth'var. I love calling it Dwueth'var—I wish everyone did—but the above tells me it's neither intuitive nor helpful to name the article "Dwueth'var". The name most natural, useful, and intuitive for readers is "Star Razor". Using most correct formal name without common usage considerations means Percy's article should be at his most proper name "Percival Fredrickstein von Musel Klossowski de Rolo III". By the rationale we have it "Percival de Rolo", it should be "Star Razor". Similarly, in the move of "Vex'ahlia de Rolo" to "Vex'ahlia" one (correctly!) remarked she's never called this in-campaign, and none objected to "Brian Wayne Foster" becoming "Brian W. Foster" on the same grounds. Star Razor is one of its names, the name most commonly used in campaign, in officil sources, and in fandom, the name its primary wielder uses. I don't see a strong basis for why we would not use a proper name most commonly used by official sources and by readers. FreckledMcCree (talk) 01:59, 26 August 2021 (UTC)


 * It's not about statistics, or number of uses (if you want to go down that road, "Bright Queen" is used 264 times vs. 20 times for "Leylas" or "Leylas Kryn"). It's about name, "Dwueth'var", vs. title or possible translation, "Star Razor". It's introduced as, "This blade was once known as Dwueth'var, the Star Razor." Listening to that, it's clear what's the name, and what's the title or translation.
 * The page name should be changed back, and the redirect from "Star Razor" restored. LynnE216 (talk) 12:10, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
 * In "Dwueth'var, the Star Razor", Star Razor is not a title. It is an epithet or a translated name. If it is an epithet, it is a proper and full name used in place of another name in common usage. An epithet is a name. If it is a translated name, then it is a proper name, and it is unclear to me why disallow a more commonly used translated name. After all, the casino is at the translated "Luck's Run", not Drensala Quon. The difference is Bright Queen is a title, and most accurately, refers to the position that Leylas Kryn holds. I do not see why we would put in so much effort to worry about ease for readers, then ignore ease for readers here. ~FreckledMcCree (Send me a message!) 14:31, 26 August 2021 (UTC)


 * You are exactly right. "Star Razor" is an epithet, "an adjective or descriptive phrase expressing a quality characteristic of the person or thing mentioned". It is not the sword's name. And that is the reason that "Dweuth'var" was the page's name for almost two and a half years. It is the same reason the page is "Leylas Kryn". I don't know how much clearer I can be when we agree that "Star Razor" is an epithet, not a name.LynnE216 (talk) 16:15, 26 August 2021 (UTC)


 * I think this discussion raises a number of great points! Having a consensus on how to consistently handle articles for things with multiple names is something that likely should be settled for the style guide, as preparation for a new influx of articles with the debut of C3, and in general to assist new editors so that when this next arises, we don’t need to reinvent the wheel.


 * Here are the questions that I think arise from this discussion; please let me know your thoughts. I apologize for the length in advance, but I felt multiple examples would be helpful in illustrating the implications.


 * Before I outline the possibilities I want to note that character names are something of an exception, in that consideration should be taken of that character’s in-game stated preferences. To wit: Vax, Vex, and Fjord do not use their official last names by deliberate choice, and Caleb Widogast does not go by Bren Ermendrud. However, some of the cases below, notably Veth, Percy, and the Gentleman, are more complicated and should be resolved.


 * I also would like to refute the use of “The Bright Queen” as a counterargument. “Bright Queen” is, as stated in the discussion above, a title. This is distinct from an epithet. The confusion is understandable here because she is, thus far, the only person to hold this title. A better analogy for the Bright Queen would be the Plank King: Wyatt Maranoss is only twice referred to as such onstream and is far more frequently referred to as “The Plank King”, but I think we all intuitively understand that because others have held this title in the past, the person “Wyatt Maranoss” is the correct name for the article. (The same can be said about “King Dwendal” vs. “Bertrand Dwendal”).


 * Dwueth’var, on the other hand, and the Star Razor, are one and the same. We already know that when the sword was broken, its name did not then pass on to another weapon; this is not a title but an epithet. These are two names referring to the same item. A more apt comparison would be The Folding Halls of Halas vs. the Archmage’s Bane, or Tal’Dorei vs. Gwessar; I think using Leylas Kryn as an example misses this crucial distinction.


 * So that leaves the following questions: which takes precedent, the “official” name, the most common name (which may be an epithet), or the (full) name by which something/someone is first introduced, assuming it is not a title?


 * If we go with the official name (with thought given towards spoilers/equally valid epithets as seen below), rather than the most common or convenient one, this indicates that we should, as stated in the previous discussion, move Percival de Rolo to Percival Fredrickstein Von Musel Klossowski de Rolo III, and the Broom of Flying back to Death from Above.


 * If we use the more common name in-universe, then Star Razor and Broom of Flying are more appropriate, and Percy’s page is at least not inconsistent. It would also be more appropriate (and more respectful of spoilers) to refer to the Gentleman as such rather than Babenon Dosal, and there are valid arguments to be made for either Veth Brenatto or Nott the Brave.


 * If we go by the name by which something is first introduced to the audience, with acknowledgement of additional non-contradictory information (eg, Beau and Yasha’s last names are revealed relatively late in the campaign but “Beauregard Lionett” is merely an expansion of “Beauregard”), then Dwueth’var would be appropriate. However, in that case, again, the Babenon Dosal article should be moved to The Gentleman (which is also the far more commonly used name), Marion Lavorre should be moved back to The Ruby of the Sea, Percy should be referred to with his full name, and Veth Brenatto should be moved back to Nott the Brave.


 * One thing I’d like to point out is our own summaries consistently refer to it as the Star Razor; as of this posting the episode page for A Heart Grown Cold refers to it by that name, even using piped links to do so. Wiki precedent for referring to this sword is unfortunately already murky.


 * For that matter, while this is slightly off topic, simply because something on a wiki has stood for a long time does not mean it is the correct choice (as seen with the consensus surrounding Death from Above); the nature of a wiki is that change will happen. I’ve been spending a lot of time lately correcting articles of similar age to this one that are, unfortunately, plagiarized, and of course no one would insist that those be kept in that state! Implementing guidelines will, again, hopefully address this in a way everyone can agree on. And regardless of that choice I'd be happy to help make the logically consistent page moves.Untropicalisland (talk) 21:48, 26 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Personally, I agree with Occidental and Lynn that the article should be Dwueth'var with a redirect from Star Razor. Similarly I believe the pages should keep the names Babenon Dosal, Marion Lavorre, and Death From Above. For Percy's page, I could go either way, honestly. KoalatyDM (talk) 22:45, 27 August 2021 (UTC) (formerly GamesWithGrace)

Secondary proposal

 * The majority opinion does seem to be in favor of keeping the original name, so I've changed it back to preserve the status quo. However, a suggestion has been made that the page could be renamed "Dwueth'var, the Star Razor" with both "Dwueth'var" and "Star Razor" redirecting there. Would there be support for that option? We could also consider renaming the gods' pages as well (e.g., "Lolth, the Spider Queen"), for the same reasons as apply here: many viewers may know a god or item better by its title or epithet than its true name. Throwing it out there as a possible alternative.LynnE216 (talk) 11:16, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Yeah, consensus is currently for "Dwueth'var". I wouldn't oppose the option for "Dwueth'var, the Star Razor" and "Lolth, the Spider Queen". I think the biggest thing is we'd have to more encourage not worrying about linking to the entire article title: linking through a redirect rather than piping is fine (it's not broken after all, and the two redirects would be for convenience) and keeps the source editing field cleaner. And, really, those titles would certainly be clearest and more obviously familiar to everyone. I suppose you can count me as a gentle but slowly warming support. I was spending a couple days thinking about it, and I was initially hesitant, but I think it's growing on me as an option. ~FreckledMcCree (Send me a message!) 18:18, 1 September 2021 (UTC)